Macaque chuckles at the thought. It's not really funny, or wouldn't be if it happened, but as a hypothetical he can chuckle a little. "All right, no names."
If nothing else, he's gotten good, with Wash, and with Choco, at asking and believing the answer without taking everything so fucking personally. It's nice.
"Subject change. I might talk later. I need to make sure Choco knows Maine, not Meta is here. I'm mostly sure she can't clock his face, but I can't be certain without zoning out. And she'll definitely have thoughts, so who knows what will get dislodged then," he said, nuzzling against Macaque's shoulder.
"Tell me about your day. Or something like that. Something less stressful."
"I got two cases of the booze that makes immortals instantly drunk. Great stuff for those of us who drink. I got two new books on the science of cooking and learned to make the perfect whipped cream. I asked Cole if he would be interested in seeing a therapist and he said yes, then I asked Max if he could swap my being Cole's pillar away from me and to someone else, and he said yes. Which I think will help a lot. The pillar thing short circuited my brain."
"One, you will have to make that whipped cream, you can't say that and not let us eat it," he said. "Two, good for Cole. Proud of him. Its hard admitting when you need therapy."
"Three, I'm glad and you should do that because its clear the pillar thing fucks you up. Just make sure Cole knows?"
"Why do you think I wanted to learn to make the perfect whipped cream?" He nudges Wash a bit for emphasis.
"I'll tell Cole. I asked Max not to say anything to anyone until I get a chance to. I think he'll be hurt... well, he'll definitely be hurt... but it's too much for me. I'm not good enough with my feelings to separate the genuine want that I have to be around Cole with the obligation of the pillar thing. It's too big. I hope he sees what I see, that there might be a light at the end of the tunnel with us if we can jut release me from this thing."
"Yes, good. I'll make sure the strawberries are ready," he said. Because that is very important to go with whipped cream. Or cocoa. One of those.
He nods. "Probably. Cole is....very young, mentally. And rigid. But you're trying to grow and you really shouldn't be making pillars on changing ground. And its not a failure to recognize you're not the best thing for a person because of your two mental states, even if the pillar is different, but kind of makes it more important to be realistic."
"I'll make sure there's enough for the strawberries and your nose." So there.
Macaque nods. "He is. He's had a lot of trauma in his short life." Which explains a lot. "I'm glad you don't think it's a failure, because I've struggled with that. But I've struggled more with believing I'm failing him constantly by being a shitty pillar."
"Its a hard thing. You want to be there to support the people you care about and you should. But sometimes you're just not in a place or the best person to do. Its why I'm so glad Choco and I have more people now. Yeah, we could depend on each other, but also we were always dancing on toxic codependency. Now we can rely on other people so we don't get ourselves overwhelmed," he said. "Sometimes the best thing you can do for a person is admit you aren't the best."
Go on, doubt him. Your nose will be covered in whipped cream so help him.
"Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do. I made an effort to get over the pillar thing and I can't." He can't imagine feeling the weight of that and being okay.
"Because I talk to you and listen to your advice. Cole really wants to help and I've tried to tell him that just listening is help, but we've had a whole thing about his advice and me opting not to take it.:
Who says doubt, he awaits with bated breath for Macaque to be cute.
"Its a lot. Anyone who doesn't think its a lot...well, okay, they might actually be good pillars because that's probably going to be a pretty straight forward way of thinking. Caboose would be like that," he said. Caboose would probably be a good pillar. It took him fourteen seasons to have an actual character crisis that lasted for any extended amount of time.
"But that is a rare sort of person. Pretty sure anyone who understands it would have a bit of a spiral at least."
"Ah. I mean, it sounds like you trying to tell him your problems would make the pillar thing more unstable," he said. "And a key part of giving advice is its usually best to give it and let the person decide when they take it. If its pressing, hope its sooner than later, but people are stubborn and take time to change how they're handling stuff more often than not."
Macaque nods along. "You've got it exactly. Maybe it wouldn't be too much for someone who is secure in themselves, but since being here, since my heart game, that's not me."
He sighs. "When I don't take Cole's advice, he thinks both that I don't trust him and that he failed. I did try to tell him that I need to be able to make my own choices, even if that means mistakes, but I don't think it changed his mind much until I made a promise to believe his view of certain things, mostly revolving around MK, and he agreed to try not to feel like a failure when i don't take his advice."
"Yeah. Heart Games do that. I'm used to rebuilding after mindfucks and I still took a while to be stable," he said. "And you can't really get more stable when you're being pressured to be stable, at least not in a timely matter. The more afraid you are to be unstable, the harder it is to get there."
That he knows well. There's a reason why it took him close to THREE YEARS after Epsilon while with Freelancer, but recovered far better when he remembered in Kyriakos and other places.
"Ah....yeah, that's the young thinking, I think. He's making your problems about him. He thinks he has the solution so it should fix the problem, but it can't because its your problem to solve. Advice is guidance. It has to go through the filter of the other person. To expect people to follow advice exactly and promptly is just giving orders."
"That's definitely true. I'm a lot more solid when there isn't pressure."
Hm... "I don't think that Cole wants or intends to give orders, even though it feels a little like that to me. It's just his wanting to help coming forward. And that's the core of why he's jealous of you. You help me. He feels like he doesn't."
"Most are," he said. "You going to need help paying for the transfer?" Because it seems like too much to expect it to be here.
"Its ultimately what it ends up being. And might help him understand his unreasonable expectations for it," he said with a shrug. "I'm also an adult with like so much more real world experience where his is very limited, it kind of comes with the territory. Really, being able to listen without crashing out is a lot, all things considered."
"Nah, there was no talk of payment. Max and I worked our shit out, and he cares about Cole. He'd do it for the low, low price of making sure that Cole is taken care of."
"Mm. You're good for me in a lot of ways. I wish he didn't think that means he isn't. Or wasn't, I guess. I'm not sure how much of a relationship we really have right now."
Macaque sighs, because talking about this is frustrating even at the best of times. "I'm not going to tell him that he has unreasonable expectations. I'm not sure he expects anything of me. He just gets frustrated when he can't help. The result has been that I just stopped telling him things. We barely talk anymore. Because I don't want to put him in that position and I don't want to put myself in that position. Hence the therapy."
"Oh? I thought he was shady," he said. He tilts his head. "But I guess you'd watch for that." Mac most likely knows what he's doing, he just worries.
"Without the strain, you guys should be able to bounce back," Wash said, reaching up to lightly stroke Mac's ear. "I know you said you told him listening helps, but have you thought of smaller, more tangible things he could do? Like....well, kettle and pot, I know you get anxious when you can't do something to help me, even if I tell you that you do."
He still hadn't been sure if he WANTED to be touched, but he had determined that he was OKAY to be touched when he let Macaque hold onto him. Because he knows it helps Macaque feel like he's doing something, and there was the chance he would be pleasantly surprised.
"You like doing something physical, tangible. Might be good to give him something like that, and isn't so up in the air as advice."
"I thought he was too. But he opened up, apologized to me and Choco for freaking us out. I might not trust him with everything, but I trust him with Cole." He wouldn't do this otherwise.
More purring then, as his ears flick forward to seek the contact.
"Well yeah I get antsy, but I don't accuse you of not trusting me or claim that you made me feel like a failure when I can't help. I get that it's frustrating, but so is being called all of that, explicitly or implicitly."
He nods. "I can try to let him help in smaller ways, if I think of any. I just wish that, in general, he'd believe me when I say that just listening is helpful enough. Shouldn't I get some say in the way I'm helped?"
"That would be the downside of being inexperienced and kind of...I don't want to say immature, but its a more kid way of thinking than adult," Wash said. Which was honestly why Wash thinks he struggled with Cole. Wash isn't used to that kind of mindset.
Even Choco was thinking like an adult in a lot of way by the time they met.
There is a reason Wash has less confidence with children who aren't already kind of fucked up.
"Kids are self centered. They make everything about themselves. And he fully believes it. He believes everything bad happens because of him versus something else fucking with him. He's the cause, he's the blame, and even you not trusting him, its not a failure on your part, its a failure on his because he can't make you trust him, and clearly he should be able to. Which isn't fair and is kind of a dick thing to do, but hopefully the therapy DOES help that," Wash said.
He lightly rubs his ears and nuzzles his shoulder. "Which doesn't make it hurt any less for you. Its one of those rock and a hard place moment and why getting rid of the pillar thing is a good idea, because its a lot easier to navigate all that without worrying about him existentially. But you also feel more stress because you love a lot and pretty intensely. You don't want him to hurt either and if he feels less anxious, it'll probably help you feel less anxious too. Even having him do stuff like help you pick the fruit in the green house or clean and organize the theater might help."
"Cole was stolen from his family at 8 years old. And had much of his memory removed at least once." So Macaque can forgive a little immaturity.
Still, Wash makes a good point. As usual.
"I hope therapy can help. Or else we won't be in each other's lives anymore, and I don't want that."
The ear Wash rubs flicks a bit. And he blushes slightly at the callout that he loves intensely.
"I definitely don't want him hurt. And if I tell him that he's not helping me he definitely would be. I'm glad you think that ending the pillar arrangement between us will help."
"I know. Just give it time. Therapy is a process. He'll probably need to be reminded to be patient too," Wash said.
Hey, he's just calling out objective facts.
"Its a lot. And its hard to step back. Its hard to say you have a limit, but people do. Choco and I have some pretty rough stories in Kyriakos. One of the things she had to learn was to step back for herself, even if I was hurting badly, because there were times I would have dragged her down with me. It sucked, we didn't like it, but it was the better call in the long run. Better I have some rough patches alone and she could help with the less rough, and we both get to the other side than both of us crashing and burning because she took on too much for someone who was a trashfire," he said. "He'll be hurt. But better the really rough patch for a short time, than crashing."
"I'll try to." Even if he just wants this fixed. he doesn't do well with missing the people he loves.
He gives Wash a soft look. "Probably for the best, you and Choco." He's seen how Wash gets during those times. "But for the record, I adore this trashfire."
"Mm, I know he'll be hurt. But my mind will be free of the stupid drama and he'll know that my being with him isn't obligation." Macaque has more than once come very close to a panic attack over the pillar thing. It's not good for him, and it's been terrible for their relationship.
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If nothing else, he's gotten good, with Wash, and with Choco, at asking and believing the answer without taking everything so fucking personally. It's nice.
"Talk more or subject change?"
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"Tell me about your day. Or something like that. Something less stressful."
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Distractions, he can do that.
"I got two cases of the booze that makes immortals instantly drunk. Great stuff for those of us who drink. I got two new books on the science of cooking and learned to make the perfect whipped cream. I asked Cole if he would be interested in seeing a therapist and he said yes, then I asked Max if he could swap my being Cole's pillar away from me and to someone else, and he said yes. Which I think will help a lot. The pillar thing short circuited my brain."
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"Three, I'm glad and you should do that because its clear the pillar thing fucks you up. Just make sure Cole knows?"
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"I'll tell Cole. I asked Max not to say anything to anyone until I get a chance to. I think he'll be hurt... well, he'll definitely be hurt... but it's too much for me. I'm not good enough with my feelings to separate the genuine want that I have to be around Cole with the obligation of the pillar thing. It's too big. I hope he sees what I see, that there might be a light at the end of the tunnel with us if we can jut release me from this thing."
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He nods. "Probably. Cole is....very young, mentally. And rigid. But you're trying to grow and you really shouldn't be making pillars on changing ground. And its not a failure to recognize you're not the best thing for a person because of your two mental states, even if the pillar is different, but kind of makes it more important to be realistic."
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Macaque nods. "He is. He's had a lot of trauma in his short life." Which explains a lot. "I'm glad you don't think it's a failure, because I've struggled with that. But I've struggled more with believing I'm failing him constantly by being a shitty pillar."
"...He's jealous of you, you know."
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"Its a hard thing. You want to be there to support the people you care about and you should. But sometimes you're just not in a place or the best person to do. Its why I'm so glad Choco and I have more people now. Yeah, we could depend on each other, but also we were always dancing on toxic codependency. Now we can rely on other people so we don't get ourselves overwhelmed," he said. "Sometimes the best thing you can do for a person is admit you aren't the best."
He paused. "...why?"
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"Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do. I made an effort to get over the pillar thing and I can't." He can't imagine feeling the weight of that and being okay.
"Because I talk to you and listen to your advice. Cole really wants to help and I've tried to tell him that just listening is help, but we've had a whole thing about his advice and me opting not to take it.:
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"Its a lot. Anyone who doesn't think its a lot...well, okay, they might actually be good pillars because that's probably going to be a pretty straight forward way of thinking. Caboose would be like that," he said. Caboose would probably be a good pillar. It took him fourteen seasons to have an actual character crisis that lasted for any extended amount of time.
"But that is a rare sort of person. Pretty sure anyone who understands it would have a bit of a spiral at least."
"Ah. I mean, it sounds like you trying to tell him your problems would make the pillar thing more unstable," he said. "And a key part of giving advice is its usually best to give it and let the person decide when they take it. If its pressing, hope its sooner than later, but people are stubborn and take time to change how they're handling stuff more often than not."
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Macaque nods along. "You've got it exactly. Maybe it wouldn't be too much for someone who is secure in themselves, but since being here, since my heart game, that's not me."
He sighs. "When I don't take Cole's advice, he thinks both that I don't trust him and that he failed. I did try to tell him that I need to be able to make my own choices, even if that means mistakes, but I don't think it changed his mind much until I made a promise to believe his view of certain things, mostly revolving around MK, and he agreed to try not to feel like a failure when i don't take his advice."
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That he knows well. There's a reason why it took him close to THREE YEARS after Epsilon while with Freelancer, but recovered far better when he remembered in Kyriakos and other places.
"Ah....yeah, that's the young thinking, I think. He's making your problems about him. He thinks he has the solution so it should fix the problem, but it can't because its your problem to solve. Advice is guidance. It has to go through the filter of the other person. To expect people to follow advice exactly and promptly is just giving orders."
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Hm... "I don't think that Cole wants or intends to give orders, even though it feels a little like that to me. It's just his wanting to help coming forward. And that's the core of why he's jealous of you. You help me. He feels like he doesn't."
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"Its ultimately what it ends up being. And might help him understand his unreasonable expectations for it," he said with a shrug. "I'm also an adult with like so much more real world experience where his is very limited, it kind of comes with the territory. Really, being able to listen without crashing out is a lot, all things considered."
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"Mm. You're good for me in a lot of ways. I wish he didn't think that means he isn't. Or wasn't, I guess. I'm not sure how much of a relationship we really have right now."
Macaque sighs, because talking about this is frustrating even at the best of times. "I'm not going to tell him that he has unreasonable expectations. I'm not sure he expects anything of me. He just gets frustrated when he can't help. The result has been that I just stopped telling him things. We barely talk anymore. Because I don't want to put him in that position and I don't want to put myself in that position. Hence the therapy."
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"Without the strain, you guys should be able to bounce back," Wash said, reaching up to lightly stroke Mac's ear. "I know you said you told him listening helps, but have you thought of smaller, more tangible things he could do? Like....well, kettle and pot, I know you get anxious when you can't do something to help me, even if I tell you that you do."
He still hadn't been sure if he WANTED to be touched, but he had determined that he was OKAY to be touched when he let Macaque hold onto him. Because he knows it helps Macaque feel like he's doing something, and there was the chance he would be pleasantly surprised.
"You like doing something physical, tangible. Might be good to give him something like that, and isn't so up in the air as advice."
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More purring then, as his ears flick forward to seek the contact.
"Well yeah I get antsy, but I don't accuse you of not trusting me or claim that you made me feel like a failure when I can't help. I get that it's frustrating, but so is being called all of that, explicitly or implicitly."
He nods. "I can try to let him help in smaller ways, if I think of any. I just wish that, in general, he'd believe me when I say that just listening is helpful enough. Shouldn't I get some say in the way I'm helped?"
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Even Choco was thinking like an adult in a lot of way by the time they met.
There is a reason Wash has less confidence with children who aren't already kind of fucked up.
"Kids are self centered. They make everything about themselves. And he fully believes it. He believes everything bad happens because of him versus something else fucking with him. He's the cause, he's the blame, and even you not trusting him, its not a failure on your part, its a failure on his because he can't make you trust him, and clearly he should be able to. Which isn't fair and is kind of a dick thing to do, but hopefully the therapy DOES help that," Wash said.
He lightly rubs his ears and nuzzles his shoulder. "Which doesn't make it hurt any less for you. Its one of those rock and a hard place moment and why getting rid of the pillar thing is a good idea, because its a lot easier to navigate all that without worrying about him existentially. But you also feel more stress because you love a lot and pretty intensely. You don't want him to hurt either and if he feels less anxious, it'll probably help you feel less anxious too. Even having him do stuff like help you pick the fruit in the green house or clean and organize the theater might help."
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Still, Wash makes a good point. As usual.
"I hope therapy can help. Or else we won't be in each other's lives anymore, and I don't want that."
The ear Wash rubs flicks a bit. And he blushes slightly at the callout that he loves intensely.
"I definitely don't want him hurt. And if I tell him that he's not helping me he definitely would be. I'm glad you think that ending the pillar arrangement between us will help."
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Hey, he's just calling out objective facts.
"Its a lot. And its hard to step back. Its hard to say you have a limit, but people do. Choco and I have some pretty rough stories in Kyriakos. One of the things she had to learn was to step back for herself, even if I was hurting badly, because there were times I would have dragged her down with me. It sucked, we didn't like it, but it was the better call in the long run. Better I have some rough patches alone and she could help with the less rough, and we both get to the other side than both of us crashing and burning because she took on too much for someone who was a trashfire," he said. "He'll be hurt. But better the really rough patch for a short time, than crashing."
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He gives Wash a soft look. "Probably for the best, you and Choco." He's seen how Wash gets during those times. "But for the record, I adore this trashfire."
"Mm, I know he'll be hurt. But my mind will be free of the stupid drama and he'll know that my being with him isn't obligation." Macaque has more than once come very close to a panic attack over the pillar thing. It's not good for him, and it's been terrible for their relationship.